The Portuguese Air Force is no longer expected to acquire the 5th generation F-35 fighter from Lockheed Martin, all due to the review of the US position towards NATO.
Stuff like this might actually be what unravels the Trump administration. The military industrial complex is far more powerful than any of the people Orange Julius has surrounded himself with, and they will not like taking losses to appease his ego.
It might unravel America, which would have much longer lasting consequences.
Bravo to Portugal!!! Setting a solid example of what the rest of 1st Class Europe should do with US weapon contracts. The current US political situation is playing a dangerous game with the US MIC.
When Finland chose their new 64 F-35s. I supported it. Not anymore. We should have chosen our west neighbour’s Saabs.
Have to be honest I’m not keen on the UK buying any more either I’d rather see Rafales on the new carriers or a tweaked eurofighter.
Euro fighter with vectoring engines, and better stealth would be doooope
Don’t think that will happen with the Tempest program being the main focus for the raf but if they could make a carrier capable tranche version it could be a good stopgap.
Asking stupid question… Isn’t this kinda shit that got Kennedy killed? Fucking w the military industrial complex? Have those barons diversified enough to not care about this line of business or something? I thought this was kind of a backbone of our economy. So many jobs too.
Killing Donny wouldn’t change much, tho.
America has shown it wants Donald or a Donald substitute.Project 2025 is now Americas playbook.
Other countries changing military suppliers isn’t going to change back to america for 10-15 years (hell, maybe even longer, I dunno what the service life of a jet platform is).
The risk that has surfaced of “America has an off switch” - even just the potential risk of rumors of an off switch - means all those military assets are useless when America elects unhinged leaders that are willing to subvert democratic process in order to run their playbook.
And America has shown it is willing to do that. Even prefers to do thatEven if they don’t have an “off switch” they can just not update the software. Those jets require constant updates and without it the radars don’t work right and the stealth degrades.
State level actors are capable of providing those updates themselves… That update is the mythical off switch they talked about and it’s absolutely sensational bunk.
America has shown it wants Donald or a Donald substitute.
well they also voted for kennedy, and they still killed him, assuming that’s how that works.
Other countries changing military suppliers isn’t going to change back to america for 10-15 years (hell, maybe even longer, I dunno what the service life of a jet platform is).
Other countries changing military suppliers isn’t going to change back to america for 10-15 years (hell, maybe even longer, I dunno what the service life of a jet platform is).
the service life of the f16 has been like forever, i think it’s been close to like 70 years now? Hell of a modernization in between then and now, similar story with the f22, although it’s quite a bit newer. Military equipment doesn’t really have a service life, it’s more so an effectiveness constant.
That’s all true, but Vance is a coward who will care more about his life than about what America wants.
The Donald has Hitler levels of luck in that regard.
plus donald has Musk as a lightning rod and a human shield.
Most dictators do, unfortunately. It takes several attempts and many courageous people willing to sacrifice to get there and sometimes that doesn’t even stop the dictatorship, as the dictator has a successor lined up.
Got to speed up the European 6th gen fighter development
That’s how we get shitty aircraft. Need to speed up developing homebrew avionics for the F35s.
The F35 is trash anyways
it’s trash, if you ignore literally everything it’s good at, which is basically everything it’s designed for.
Turns out cars aren’t very good at crossing the ocean. Who would’ve thunk a fighter jet not designed for dogfighting wouldn’t be designed to dogfight. Truly a baffling conundrum.
By all metrics available, the F35 is literally the most capable jet in existence, it’s technological capabilities are literally unmatched.
F35 is designed to be a multirole fighter-bomber, it’s a jack of all trades, but has some serious tradeoffs in stealth and maneuverability. And before you go off (rightfully) about how dogfighting is mostly irrelevant in the modern age, manuverability is also how you crank to avoid missiles at long range.
The F22 can take on multiple F35s at the same time and smoke 'em.
In those same tests when they let the F-35 engage at range it won most of the time. It’s literally the close in dogfight part that it doesn’t win at and that’s why the F-22 is supposed to do that for it. The F-35 without an F-22 mission profile is to sneak into radar range, trigger AIM 174s from the super hornets behind it to clear enemy air assets and then get into range for it’s air to ground payload; drop that and light the afterburner to go home. At no point is it envisioned willingly dogfighting.
if you’re of Russian descent, i can understand the concept of just, forgetting about certain problems, they were notorious for that one.
But i can assure you, the F35 has the ability to make up for those downfalls, it’s like you said, a trade off. You trade stealth and maneuverability for additional hardware and functionality, it’s a fighter positioned for a different role in modern warfare, it’s not meant to solely defend itself, it’s meant to be a functional piece of a military force.
The F22 can take on multiple F35s at the same time and smoke 'em.
The F22 is also an incredibly capable fighter jet, even more so than the extremely capable f15/f16 that’s been around for damn near ever. In fact, the F22 and F35 are probably supposed to work together, rather than separately. The F35 covers roles the F22 cannot, the F22 covers roles the F35 cannot, it’s the basis of most military strategy.
I’m guessing the F22 is beating the F35 specifically in dog fighting, a task it’s literally not meant for. Given that it’s also a recent addition to the fleet, it’s not uncommon for the military to put new tech in all kinds of weird situations to battle test it, ensure that it can do what it should, and to (this is really important) understand it’s weaknesses in the event that it becomes relevant.
Interestingly enough, the fact that the F35 carries weapons at all is pretty impressive, given it’s technical feats.
You’re telling me the purpose built air superiority fighter can out fight the multi-role strike-fighter? That’s wild and who’d of thunk!
I never understood why they stopped making the F22. Less profit, probably.
What makes you form that opinion?
It is american?
that was also the logic that lead to russia thinking they could beat ukraine, uh, didn’t work.
Valid
Thank fucking god
Dunno if you’ll find a more European fighter than the Gripen.
Uses a license produced engine from US (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volvo_RM12), which has caused endless problems in exports for SAAB, since the US blocks them frequently when they are about to win a contract.
I would go for Rafale or Eurofighter and I am saying this as a swede. We need to replace the engines ASAP. Perhaps a UK, German or French one. Would probably take years to develop thought and likely a significant overhaul will be necessary.
Well, an easier fix is to just keep using the engine design, and stop paying the license fees.
What is the US gonna do? Stop supporting NATO? Put tariffs on exports to the EU? Stop being an ally, and ally themselves with Russia?
presumably NATO could group up, and vote to kick a country out of NATO, i assume this would be one of those cases, if they really caused trouble.
Use stolen military technology as a casus-belli maybe?
Yeah, I think it’s best to treat the US these days like a dangerous dog you meet in an alley - don’t make eye contact and back slowly away.
So, the US attacks a NATO member, kicking off Article 5.
Sure.
The USA is like 60% of NATO forces.
So this would more likely lead to the dissolution of NATO.
The point I was making is that the adults in the room would probably prefer to not kick the hornets nest despite preparing for the worst if the hornets nest kicks off.
The hornet nest is already kicked up… And the US is 60% of NATO right NOW. Which means Europe needs to bolster themselves. And its easier to do that without handing over half a billion bucks for nothing.
Just ignore it. Trump ignores contracts all the time. At worst? He’d just put more tariffs on the EU, because he knows not a single general will launch a war in Europe.
What about the Eurofighter?
And then there’s the rafale
The Eurofighter’s prettier, estranged cousin
Uses US engine
Why would anybody feel they can rely on American hardware anymore? Any country with any sense won’t be beholden to them as an ally now thanks to that idiotic mango.
They went to the fighter store and all the F-35s were turned upside down.
Mmm… Pretty interesting article.
Mate I dislike JS as much as anyone but there’s no need to bring it in here.
well you’ve got like, two options.
One of them is the swedes, and uh, it’s not bad, the other is uh checks notes hm, well you’ve got the swedes at least.
Edit: not the swiss, i confuse the two, they’re both european, don’t @ me.
hey guys, I think that trump guy might just be really awful for America.
Yeah. We know. Others are going ro find out.
Noggles
Why is that a bad thing ?
I’m assuming because American arms dealers like Lockheed Martin are losing a ton of business and America is rapidly losing the soft power and influence its build over the past 80 years
Why is that a bad thing ?
because that’s the entire crux of NATO, the post war world, and most of the military stability that currently exists throughout the western world, and beyond.
Who knows what happens after this point.
WWIII ofc, it’s inevitable if NATO falls. Who knows how it will play out, but it will play out if that comes to pass.
it’s an interesting time to be alive in, that’s for sure.
You mean how NATO destroyed Asia, Africa and the Middle East and is making masses of refugee streams emigrate? Very stable indeed.
NATO is the worlds largest terror organisation by a long shot. You deny their crimes committed in broad daylight because you have not been a victim of them.
What is next, The Empire did nothing wrong?
O mundo já mudou. Houve eleições nos EUA, houve uma posição em relação à NATO e ao mundo, afirmada pelo secretário para a Defesa e pelo próprio Presidente dos EUA, que tem que ser tida em conta também na Europa e no que tem a ver com Portugal.
E esse nosso aliado, que ao longo de décadas foi sempre previsível, poderá trazer limitações na utilização, na manutenção, nos componentes, em tudo aquilo que tem a ver com a garantia de que as aeronaves serão operacionais e serão utilizadas em todo o tipo de cenários.
Interview here, in Portuguese.
The world has already changed. There were elections in the USA, there was a position [change] regarding NATO and the world, stated by both the Defense Secretary and the President of the USA, that has to be taken into account in Europe and in Portugal.
Our ally, who through decades has always been predictable [as in steadfast], may bring limitations to using, to maintaining, to components, anything that relates to the assurance that the planes are operational and can be used in all types of scenarios.
For some context, Portugal has an aging fleet of F-16s. The national Air Force wants to replace these with F-35s, but that is no longer likely to happen.
He was asked if Portugal would instead purchase, for example, French aircraft, but he declined to answer.
If we assume that Portugal would have ordered the same number as Czechia (a fellow European country with a pretty close GDP, population, and military budget that already bought F-35s) and take the flyaway cost on wikipedia of $82.500,000 as the price Portugal would have paid per plane, that’s $2 billion in sales that Lockheed Martin doesn’t get
Portugal would probably have bought more, since we have a large area of the Atlantic Ocean that needs to be patrolled not only by sea, but also by air.
You also gotta make sure nobody tries to steal the Azores for their beautiful nature.
that’s $2 billion in sales that Lockheed Martin doesn’t get
And that’s just the beginning.
I feel like billionaires might resolve the Trump/musk issue for us. Fucking with a defense contractor’s bottom line is pretty dangerous, especially when you have private security (Musk)
I feel like billionaires might resolve the Trump/musk issue for us. Fucking with a defense contractor’s bottom line is pretty dangerous, especially when you have private security (Musk)
Honestly, I feel it’s more likely to display how much the defense industry is just another ordinary industry. They’ll whinge and wring their hands, maybe openly support the limpdick opposition if they’re feeling particularly pressured, but all that experience in making killing machines is just engineering and marketing. They’re not more likely to have clout or death squads (of their own, at least) than other major industries of comparable size and importance, and everything is structured in such a compartmentalized way that they couldn’t really leverage that against the government if they actually wanted to throw down.
The defense industry is more like the oil industry than a cyberpunk future. Influential, not independent.
They’re not more likely to have clout or death squads (of their own, at least) than other major industries of comparable size and importance, and everything is structured in such a compartmentalized way that they couldn’t really leverage that against the government if they actually wanted to throw down.
now if they have influence over the military… That’s what starts coups.
The funniest possible outcome of this would be Lockheed Martin starting up a Tesla competitor
Edit: on the upside, it’ll probably come with a zero/zero ejection seat as a standard feature, so that’s neat.
What about the expertise in suiciding whistleblowers?
What about the expertise in suiciding whistleblowers?
Doesn’t Boeing do mostly civilian aircraft?
They do something for military, so it’s not a docile, purely civilian company
Fucking with a defense contractor’s
Good point. Hadn’t really thought of it that way. What an enormous mess…
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The enemy of my enemy
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#ElbowsUp eh
Do they get more planes for their buck now?
Disclaimer in that I am not in any way an expert on military procurement: it depends on what they buy.
There are three European planes that can do similar roles: the Typhoon (Anglo-German-Italian), the Rafale (French), and the Gripen (Swedish). According to this RUSI article, it looks like the Typhoon is probably actually more expensive per plane. The Typhoon was also, unlike the other two and the F-35, designed to be a pure air superiority fighter, so it’s more of an F-22 competitor than an F-35 one. Probably not what Portugal is looking for. That RUSI article has the Rafale as being a bit more expensive than the F-35 and the Gripen being a bit cheaper than it. However, the source for the F-35’s number is the flyaway cost for the Americans, who did ordered it in huge numbers and also did most (not all, but most) of the development and I would assume get a better deal than others. Further, it’s in an article headlined “F-35’s price might rise, Lockheed warns”. So I’m just going to hedge my bets and say:
- If they buy the Typhoon, definitely no, but the Typhoon probably isn’t the right fit anyway
- If they buy the Rafale, somewhere around the same, and it’ll still be extremely capable
- If they buy the Gripen, yes, and it’ll still be very good but not quite individually capable as the other options
That’s all well and good, but you’re also missing a critical point.
The European Union is very likely to introduce a bill that will massively subsidize purchases of local (EU) military equipment. This will make all EU alternatives much, much more attractive than F-35s.
This is a great move by the EU - it drives a lot of military spending away from the US and into the local economies, while shoring up its own security as well as preventing being at the hands of a fickle fascist for maintenance and upgrades.
Which in turn will probably also help with economies of scale, making the ex-subsidy cost of that equipment go down.
For once, our (Croatian) government lucked into making a good choice when they went with Rafales instead of F-16Vs.
A last point to consider is that the rafale is cheaper to operate than the F-35
What’s your opinion on Tejas (Yes, I know it’s not European)
Uhh, don’t expect any special insights here
It looks to me like it’s pretty impressive considering that it’s the second combat plane ever built in the country, and the experience gained from that is a valuable thing.
I have to assume that it’s less capable and less expensive than the four that I mentioned, based on how it has fared as an export. It seems to have struggled against the European, American, and Chinese offerings, or in many cases have been considered as a trainer by countries that are already flying one of those previously-mentioned ones. Obviously there’s a lot of politics involved in these purchases, but if Australia has already bought F-35s and wants Tejases as trainers then it suggests that Australia has a good reason to think that Tejas is a lot less expensive and also less effective at actually fighting a war
It seems like it suits its role well, though - a cost-effective solution for India’s needs, and a way to develop domestic expertise
