- cross-posted to:
- news@beehaw.org
- cross-posted to:
- news@beehaw.org
Donald Trump has said that Palestinians have “no alternative” but to leave Gaza due to the devastation left by Israel’s war on Hamas, in effect endorsing ethnic cleansing of the territory over the opposition of Palestinians and the neighbouring countries.
Speaking as he prepared to host Israel’s prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, on Tuesday, Trump repeated the suggestion that Gaza’s population should be relocated to Jordan and Egypt – something both countries have firmly rejected.
Trump claimed Palestinians would “love to leave Gaza”, telling reporters: “I would think that they would be thrilled.”
I’m sorry, but were the democrats stopping the thing?
Stop framing this like this is on the people who didn’t want the genocide to happen. It’s such a weird victory lap I see people here taking. Without fail.
You’re reading news about people being ethnically cleansed and you’re patting yourselves on the back. What in the fuck.
The establishment US and the ownership class are all-in on this genocide. We are exactly where we would’ve been if Kamala had won. They all support Israel. The democrats just had to do some surface level finger wagging because they knew they were relying on the votes of a bunch of people who see how genocide for what it is. They were lying to you and you’re acting like Israel and the Palestinians aren’t on the same exact path they would’ve been had Kamala won.
You all are sick for taking these horrible stories as some kind of victory. The ownership class is pitting you against republicans, and you against the people who didnt vote exactly like you did in an election. And why was that? Because the people you voted for were enabling a fucking genocide.
As was said elsewhere, history won’t be kind to Biden, trump, Kamala, and Netanyahu. But it won’t be kind to the people who were looking the other way to vote for the enablers.
We were handed a shit sandwich. We all had zero good choices. So some people decided they couldn’t bring themselves to vote for enablers of genocide. That isn’t an incorrect decision. Stop fighting the people who—I mean, I’m assuming(?) you don’t support the genocide…—want to see the genocide end. Because what could you possibly be getting out of that but all these back pats you’re giving yourself?
Oh fuck off. Kamala wouldn’t have been cheering for ethnic cleansing.
If you have two choices and one is less bad, you choose the less bad one.
Nah, she would have just continued to do it quietly, just like Biden did. You people are fucking monsters man. Absolutely no sympathy for the Palestinian people.
Ask a Palestinian how they feel about your sympathy
None of these people bother to talk to Palestinians. They don’t have to. They know what the simple little people over there need.
Look below your comment and see what a Palestinian thinks. And then kindly shut the fuck up with your false sense of superiority.
You mean what one single Palestinian, if they are in fact Palestinian, thinks.
As far as a false sense of superiority, I have no sense of superiority at all. There is no doubt in my mind that I am the most inferior person you have ever talked to.
Ive done protests with lots of Palestinian Canadians, and I know exactly what they think. YOURE the one being presumptuous here, and even in this thread you’re trying to discounting what an actual Palestinian is saying to you. You’re fucking delusional man.
Just because I’m far inferior to you doesn’t make it okay to insult me. Especially when it’s an insult about something that isn’t true and there are far more actual terrible things you could insult me over.
I mean if you’re determined to insult me, at least do it over something I deserve.
I can help you out, if you’d like.
You do know that we also have internet and stuff right? None of us congratulates you for voting the Democrats. You people are sick for using us to bully people who didn’t vote for your party.
The genocide unfolded under the Biden administration and the ethnic cleansing and apartheid already happened under Trump, Obama, Bush, Clinton and whoever was before that. To us you are all the same. Trump is a horrible person and he’s saying the quiet part out loud, but that doesn’t make all the other politicians any better.
Sorry about all these people man. And I am so fucking sorry about what’s happening in your country. Been protesting it for 15 or so years now in Canada and it seems to have done fuck all. And you can’t even talk to liberals about it because they’ve gone totally mask off about caring about you guys. I don’t know what to say man.
Thanks for your kind words. It’s also shocking to me to see, but here we are. For now, the situation remains dire for us but the public opinion has changed in a way that I have never considered possible. Your protests may not have stopped the genocide, but there’s a whole new generation of people who are pro-Palestine now, all around the world. And to me that means a lot, even the people in Gaza have seen the student protests, it gives everyone hope.
I just really hope that we’ll have enough time left to change things. And from the protests myself I became more concerned with other issues as well, and I hope to spread that in my community.
Well thanks man. I’m not gonna stop trying. Don’t give up hope.
Yup, all the bad shit was happening no matter who got in. So you chose between keeping the US running and having a chance for change or installing the 4th Reich and you chose the latter.
I am not American and I don’t live in the US. I am Palestinian so I chose nothing. I just had the questionable luck to be born in a place where Zionists wanted to build a colony.
Poster said ask a Palestinian and here I am. You chose what you believed was right for you. But don’t use me to justify that.
Ask a Palestinian in Gaza how they feel about Biden providing “Israel” enough explosives to kill a million people.
And not murdering our country and doing permanent long term damage…I’ll take the trade and hope people can work against it. Noone is going against it now. Morons.
Nobody was going against it before. What don’t you guys understand about this?
It wasn’t an issue at the top of the list of concerns. There were more important things. Single-issue bullshit.
That single issue is genocide you nazi fuck.
What specifically have you done to help Palestinians other than not vote for certain people and berate people on the internet?
“Vote for candidate A who supports genocide.”
“Vote for candidate B who supports genocide.”
“Don’t vote and be loud about it so that in the next election, the losing party is hopefully forced to have a candidate that doesn’t support genocide to get your vote.”
Which one of those 3 has at least a theoretical chance of helping (even if it may be too late by then)?
I am not saying it was worth it, considering how much worse Trump is on most other issues. It probably wasn’t. But if Palestine is the only issue you care about, it makes sense to not vote.
So the answer is nothing. You’ve done nothing.
Not one phone call, not one form e-mail, let alone actually go somewhere.
How many Palestinians have you even talked to about their needs and desires?
I’ve contacted MLA’s and MP’s about it for every single federal and provincial election for the last 15 years as well and going to protests regularly to stop this shit. It doesn’t work because liberals won’t also pressure politicians and instead would call out leftists for not supporting the right genocide candidate.
Got it, everyone give up and don’t push politicians to do the right thing because it doesn’t work.
Not at all what I said but go off.
Ah right, because US politicians care so much about calls and e-mails from Europeans who can’t vote for them.
Plenty of European politicians support this war too. How many of them did you contact?
And you didn’t answer my question about Palestinians. How many have you talked to about their needs and desires?
Oh, right, I forgot I should have checked first if they wanted a bomb dropped on their head or literally anything else.
Thankfully in Europe, we have more choices than two genocidal maniacs, so I could just vote for ones that don’t support genocide.
Not that it changes much, since US is the only country actually sending significant material support to Israel and diplomatically shields them from consequences.
So that’s the difference? The fact that trump is saying it out loud?
So between a clearly labeled rat poison box, and one that says “probably not rat poison,” the right choice is the one that’s saying it’s not?
Because the genocide was in full swing when Biden was in office. They made some minor surface level pauses in specific types of bombs…and then started shipping them again. They cut the amount of weapons, and then upped it again.
I’m not saying trump is not worse. But you people are entirely missing the point if you think people who wouldn’t sign their names to a genocide are the ones in the wrong.
You all obviously missed the point further down my comment, where I said stop fighting people who want to end the genocide? Because, that’s what you want, right? If it is, you wouldn’t be doing what you’re doing.
Dude just stop. I’m going to hold my tongue…
Hold your tongue? This is a comment section. Say it.
I’m trying to have a nuanced discussion here. Because I think it’s important. If you think throwing insults or something (why else would you need to “hold your tongue?”) is your response, then do it.
I joined this discussion to make my point because I think we’re all (supposedly) on the same side. And I think there is good to be found in a discussion between people on the same side not seeing eye to eye at the moment. I think that driving a wedge in the anti genocide side of the fence (because this is either a pro-genocide or anti-genocide discussion…right?) is wrong. And I want people to stop doing it. And I think the reason they’re doing it is a very self-serving reason.
That’s not an attack of you all. It’s…an opinion. And, like I said, this is a comment section.
On what? On how much better you think Bidens and Harris support to Israels genocide was? I would prefer you’ve stop rationalizing genocide.
There was far more than Gaza at stake. Clown.
Oh? Well that clears them of all guilt!
Buddy, we’re all impressed that you know what Gaza is (finally).
Oh, i see, you where always a bag of air. cool cool.
GOT EEEMM
Our blue conservative “allies” want nothing to do with representing any of us. That’s why the way forward is pushing for electoral reform so the democrats will be forced to actually compete for our vote.
I get the feeling dems are so frail and fragile from using First-past-the-post voting as a crutch for so long that they wouldn’t be able to compete. They certainly can’t compete with the circus that is the republican party.
Fucking embarrassing.
Democrats know keeping 3rd parties from participating is a existential struggle for them. They are clearly willing to sacrifice the USA over giving up this hostage scenario.
Unelectable.
Choice was the status quo and pushing towards a solution or palestines almost immediate erasure to violent cheers. Nothing to do with being ‘right’, about hoping yous aren’t completely cooked and see sense. Just as far gone as MAGA unfortunately.
“My candidate was the right choice and you’re wrong. You’re basically maga.”
You have to see how insane that is.
I’m not saying trump isn’t worse. I’m saying if you people cared about the genocide, you wouldn’t be trying to throw anti-genocide people under the bus. You just wouldn’t. You would be working with them toward a solution.
The other powerless people aren’t your enemy. The ownership class that is committing and profiting off this genocide is. But you all are taking aim at the underclass because it gives you a high horse to ride.
That is wrong. That’s my point. But you all just doubled down in the face of that sentiment.
I’m an anarchist dumbass I can just see the reality. Yous are as gone as maga. Victims of propaganda and acting against your own (and the palestines interests).
You aren’t anti-genocide. As we told you before the election, your outcome of your stance is pro genocide. And now the Palestinians have to pay the price for your stupidity.
That’s a depressingly binary outlook for an anarchist.
Are you sure you’re an anarchist? Because thinking that there was either the choice to vote for one party or “you’re brainwashed” just doesn’t exactly scream anarchist to me.
You’re overlooking my entire point to make a binary, deterministic point about only one decision being right in this scenario. You’re an anarchist telling people that f they didn’t vote for a political party complicit in a genocide, that they’re just as bad as the genocidal forces? There is legitimately no sense to be found in this.
I’m more of a Chomsky-esque anarchist myself when it comes to voting. And even I don’t see how you could make this claim. Under normal circumstances, I would be with you between trump and Kamala. But there is a fucking genocide happening, in the US’s pocket, and there were two pro genocide candidates on the ticket. Faulting the people against the genocide for the scenario being our reality, and not the people who wouldn’t break with the idea that the genocide was something to support? You’re not an anarchist, you’re a bootlicker.
You’re throwing the people who couldn’t stomach the fact that a genocide would’ve been done in their name had your candidate won under the bus? Not those who wouldn’t listen to the millions of people telling them they’re wrong and blindly kept supporting the slaughter? With historians and the world community and the activists screaming that we are witnessing a Nazi-esque ethnic cleansing, you’re not faulting the politicians who only see the opportunity for influence and government contracts?
You’re faulting…activists and peacemongers. For not voting for your candidate?
I just want to be sure I’m understanding your position here.
Don’t come at me with some binary explanation that “well the other side is worse,” I want you to do your best to shed that two party mentality to think about this in the larger picture, and then reaffirm your point for me, here.
Neo-proudhonian mutualist with a dash of agorist praxis via non-violent counter-economic ®evolution.
Changing the system by voting is not possible. The best we can do is pick the one closest aligned with our values, that will allow us to effectively organise (vs Trump turning the military on protestors/leftists), buy the Palestinians some time (vs literal cheering for ethnic clensing).
They’re statists and authoritarians—I don’t expect them to listen to reason, and I can’t change that. My criticism is directed at those who actively pushed for a worsening of the genocide by enabling that screwball to take power, rather than supporting actual anti-genocide leftists who understand that, flawed as it is, liberalism is still preferable to outright fascism. You should know better. Instead, you keep shifting between shill gambit, baseless accusations and bad-faith comparisons.
Chomsky also acknowledged pragmatic short-term engagement with existing structures (e.g., voting for the lesser evil) while aiming for long-term abolition of oppressive institutions, FYI.
In the 2016 and 2020 U.S. elections, he argued that it was morally imperative to vote for the Democratic candidate because the alternative would be worse for marginalized communities, climate policy, and global stability.
https://chomsky.info/an-eight-point-brief-for-lev-lesser-evil-voting
I’m going to throw so-called anti-genocide people under the bus because it’s very clear that most of you didn’t do dick about it and thought that being jerks to people online and not voting for certain candidates was all that was needed to be done, while I was working my ass off in emails, on the phone and in person.
And I get berated when I bring that up by so-called anti-genocide people too.
So you’re painting me with the broadest brush imaginable because you can only think in binary terms.
Because I hold the belief that not voting for Kamala Harris wasn’t the immoral choice, that must mean I’m just like everyone you’re imagining? You don’t know me, A. And B., I never said I did or didn’t vote one way or another.
I’m just so sick of this attitude I see all over lemmy. It’s the opposite of critical thought. It’s shouting “I was right” into a cave because you know you’ll hear your opinion validated and your ego stroked.
I just think if people here cared about the genocide and ending it, your position wouldn’t be so focused on you. It wouldn’t be so focused on the election that’s already over and how right you all were. When news came across your feeds about genocide and suffering, you wouldn’t frame it with your own personal choices.
Because that is essentially throwing your hands up and saying, “well, my plan didn’t work, and it didn’t work because these people.”
You all spend so much time back patting and laying blame at the feet of people who are against the genocide, that you’re driving a wedge into the anti genocide movement. Strictly for your own personal gain.
At that point, you’re not anti-genocide, you’re anti-doing a goddamn thing about it.
That is and has been my only point since I made a comment in this thread. I knew I was going to face a bunch of these types of comments, but I thought I’d be able to get my point across. And my point is that you need to take your heads out of the election and work with, not against, the working class. Because your allegiance to an ownership class representative proving you were right in your support doesn’t mean a goddamn thing when we’re talking about a fucking genocide.
That’s what I’m trying to get you all to see. Because this echo chamber here where the prevailing thought is “undecideds are the enemy!” is so incredibly self-defeating and self-serving. Self-defeating if the end to the genocide is really what you want, and self-serving because it puts you on a high horse while shedding any and all responsibility.
Changing that outlook is my entire point in this viper pit.
I didn’t visit any politician’s offices in the last two weeks since I’m new in the country we just fled to, but I still made sure to dedicate three hours last week to both emails and phone calls to various politicians. So I guess you’re right. I am anti-doing a goddamn thing about it.
What would you suggest I do?
Well, since this discussion is about solidarity in the anti-genocide movement, as I’ve said many times, I would suggest everyone (and, excuse me if I mislabeled you as being against my initial point, but I’m having a discussion with a bunch of people) that you all stop trying to scapegoat other people who don’t want to see a genocide happen. Do all you want personally, that’s all great. But my entire point was that you all say, “I’m the real anti-genocider! And all these people are wrong!” No matter that they want what you supposedly want.
Stop driving a wedge in the movement by high roading people who want the same thing you do. There’s a huge rash of this behavior, and that’s what I’m trying to call out. You can do all the good you want, but if you then go into the community to salt the earth behind you for all those who want what you do, you’re negating any good you’ve done.
I said no such thing, nor did I even imply such a thing.
If you want to tell people to stop things, tell yourself stop including me in the things you’re saying about other people.
I do a shitload to try to stop this genocide with what is in my extremely limited power and I have never even implied either of the things you have put in quotes.
Whatever you have to tell yourself I guess, right?