• CatholicSocialist@lemmy.ml
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    1 year ago

    So let me get this straight, a group of people overwhelmingly wish to separate, and the government tries to prevent them from doing that, and you don’t think that’s imperialism? I bet you don’t feel the same about separatism in Catalonia, Donbas, Kurdistan, or the Zapatistas. Classic tankie logic: imperialism good when done by purported “communists.”

      • CatholicSocialist@lemmy.ml
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        1 year ago

        The Civil War was imperialism but it was good imperialism. Fascist breakaways are a bit different: the Union taking over the South was infringing on their self-governance, but that’s a good thing, Confederates were pure evil. It’s like after WWII and Axis powers became occupied, could you technically call that colonialism? Maybe, but they needed to be.

        If Taiwan was blatantly fascistic, genocidal, had slavery, etc. I would support China colonizing them… but they aren’t. They’re neoliberal (much like China), which is lame, but they’re not a Nazi state. Remind me, who was the first in Asia to legalize gay marriage?

        Your comparison is bad faith.

        • TheLepidopterists [he/him]@hexbear.net
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          1 year ago

          If Taiwan was blatantly fascistic, genocidal, had slavery, etc. I would support China colonizing them… but they aren’t.

          Taiwan AKA the Republic of China was founded as a settler colonial military dictatorship

          • CatholicSocialist@lemmy.ml
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            1 year ago

            And are they a military dictatorship today? Even when they were, they weren’t a threat to world peace or humanity like the Confederacy or the Japanese Empire. By that logic do you think the US military should intervene in African military dictatorships?

            • TheLepidopterists [he/him]@hexbear.net
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              1 year ago

              The KMT was certainly a threat to Formosans, and to leftists living in the island they’d seized.

              If the Confederacy had survived the war as rump state in Southern Florida and continued to claim to rule the entire US South and in the mid nineties claimed to be a democracy and then finally elected a non-military president in the aughts, would you call the US imperialist for not recognizing the Confederacy?

        • JohnBrownsBussy2 [she/her, they/them]@hexbear.net
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          1 year ago

          Okay, that’s consistent. Given that the modern incarnation of Taiwan was founded as a fascistic & genocidal settler colony, what was the timepoint at which a decisive end to the Chinese Civil War shifted from acceptable to unacceptable in your eyes?

    • meth_dragon [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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      1 year ago

      group of people overwhelmingly wish to separate

      this is just not true. the overwhelming majority want a return to the status quo, a status quo that was very consistently gravitating towards china before the US decided to stir shit using its DPP puppets. the taiwanese people are perfectly capable of understanding which side their bread is buttered on and that their families cannot subsist on a diet of freedom and democracy.

        • meth_dragon [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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          1 year ago

          i can’t believe i enabled images for this

          they’re not even figures, they’re just snippets of text from natopedia that somehow unequivocally support my claim

          what am i supposed to do with this? gloat?

          • CatholicSocialist@lemmy.ml
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            1 year ago

            If you actually read it you would know the vast majority either want to keep the self-governance or become fully independent (50%). Both of those are some form of separatism, even if most of them don’t want anything radical that could trigger a war.

              • CatholicSocialist@lemmy.ml
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                1 year ago

                I said Taiwanese people are overwhelmingly separatists. Proved to be true, seeing only 18% want China having any control over them.

                • meth_dragon [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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                  1 year ago

                  jfc, points for trying to turn this into a semantics game but sorry, fuck you

                  lets look at bbc, first result we get when we search "台独民意调查“ on google.hk because apparently google.tw is too spicy for google’s techbro commissariat. whatever, close enough:

                  2020年的数据首先反映在统独立场。台湾人偏向“台湾独立”的支持度为27.7%,是历年最高;“尽快独立”的民意有7.4%。此外,希望“两岸统一”则占5.1%,是历年最低。选择“维持现状再决定”的民众比例为28.7%,而且在持续下降中。“永远维持现状”者占23.6%

                  even tries to reframe it by breaking up de facto status quo supporters into two camps but plurality still supports status quo

                  how about cn language natopedia

                  2020, NCCU (same as the bbc study):

                  1. “尽快独立”占7.4%
                  2. “偏向独立”占27.7%,为历年最高
                  3. “永远维持现状”占23.6%
                  4. “维持现状再决定”的民众比例持续下降至28.7%
                  5. “尽快统一”占0.7%创下新低

                  2021, united news:

                  1. “尽快独立”占18%
                  2. “维持现况再独立”占16%
                  3. “永远维持现状”占51%
                  4. “维持现状再统一”占6%
                  5. “尽快统一”占4%
                  6. “无意见”占3%

                  2022, ‘taiwanese public opinion foundation’ (read: cia cutout):

                  1. “坚持台湾独立”占27.3%
                  2. “赞成但不坚持台湾独立”占22.8%
                  3. “维持现状但偏台湾独立”占11.3%
                  4. “永远维持现状”占8.4%
                  5. “维持现状但偏两岸统一”占6.0%
                  6. “赞成但不坚持两岸统一”占9.4%
                  7. “坚持两岸统一”占2.4%

                  look at how they progressively split the status quo category (the size of which does not demonstrably change) into smaller and smaller demos to try and push an agenda

                  let’s give you the benefit of the doubt and more closely examine what is obviously the most compromised source here. this is the cia cutout’s (shitty and completely unprofessional) paper from this year. they’d probably lose funding if they put something as damning as actual independence vs status quo numbers out there so they decided to go with plausibly deniable second order opinion sets and STILL get blown the fuck out

                  just take the L dude, taiwanese are completely cognizant of the fact they’re being primed to be the next ukraine and most of them understandably want no part of that

      • CatholicSocialist@lemmy.ml
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        1 year ago

        Uh, yes? I don’t support the blatant invasion and warcrimes by Russia but I can recognize Ukraine has a fascist problem too.

        • TheLepidopterists [he/him]@hexbear.net
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          1 year ago

          Wait, do you support Donbas self rule or not? Are they not allowed to invite their ally (Russia) to support them militarily in a war of aggression by their neighbor, Ukraine?

          • CatholicSocialist@lemmy.ml
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            1 year ago

            I very clearly am saying I support Donbas but Russia has taken it too far and has become the larger aggressor.

            • TheLepidopterists [he/him]@hexbear.net
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              1 year ago

              How should Russia have defended their allies, the DPR and LPR without attacking their aggressor’s supply lines?

              Can you think of any wars in which both participants didn’t attack least try to attack military supply chains?

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              1 year ago

              I did, but then I also read the rest of your comment, which muddied things a lot.

              You’re getting pretty damn hostile and evasive about this.

              • CatholicSocialist@lemmy.ml
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                1 year ago

                Muddied? There’s this thing called “nuance.” I support Donbas independence, I simply don’t think it gives Russia the right to invade anywhere outside of Donbas, is that that complicated to understand?

                • TheLepidopterists [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                  1 year ago

                  So if you invade another country and as part of their defense of their country, their military enters your country, they’re now the aggressors?

                  Do you apply that principal to all conflicts, or only against enemies of the West?

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                  1 year ago

                  When 99.9% of people who unironically use the word tankie, and think that ‘fascist’ means ‘anything I don’t like’, also fiercely oppose Donbas independence, and when the one I’m talking to is also refusing to just give a clear answer, I’m not about to say I’m in the wrong for asking some clarifying questions.

                  Also, why doesn’t it give Russia the right to invade? Was it wrong for the allies to invade Germany proper during WW2?

                  • CatholicSocialist@lemmy.ml
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                    1 year ago

                    when the one I’m talking to is also refusing to just give a clear answer

                    I very clearly said I supported their independence, but okay.

                    Also, why doesn’t it give Russia the right to invade?

                    So let me get this straight, you support civilians being massacred and innocent lives being lost? You really think Ukraine is on the same level of Nazi fucking Germany? Honestly I wouldn’t even much of a problem if they just invaded Donbas but they’re invading the whole fucking country and causing so much death and destruction. How is that justified? How can you call yourself anti-war and anti-imperialism and justify a brutal invasion? Some true colors being shown…

    • edge [he/him]@hexbear.net
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      1 year ago

      I bet you don’t feel the same about separatism in Catalonia, Donbas, Kurdistan, or the Zapatistas.

      Literally none of those are imperialism. Imperialism isn’t having a region want independence. Do you think Scotland not being allowed to have a vote is imperialism?

    • Awoo [she/her]@hexbear.net
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      1 year ago

      a group of people overwhelmingly wish to separate

      No they don’t. You are just flat out fucking wrong.

      • CatholicSocialist@lemmy.ml
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        1 year ago

        The “status quo” for most Taiwanese is de facto separation genius, and they don’t want to do anything rash.

        • Awoo [she/her]@hexbear.net
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          1 year ago

          No it isn’t. The status quo is that Taiwan is a region of China, independently governed. This is the case for MANY places around the world, here in the UK for example we have Scottish and Welsh governments, independent of the UK government. Scotland has its own parliament. Does that make it independent? Fuck no it doesn’t and there’s no mechanism for it to leave either.

          There are MORE people in Scotland that want Scottish independence than Taiwan. Chew on that for a bit.

            • Awoo [she/her]@hexbear.net
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              1 year ago

              This is semantics. You’re playing with the difference between independent as a country and independent in governance, two different things. You’re not participating in good faith, as per usual.

              • CatholicSocialist@lemmy.ml
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                1 year ago

                And my original comment was based on “separatism” which includes independent governance. Most Taiwanese hate China either way.

                • Awoo [she/her]@hexbear.net
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                  1 year ago

                  No it fucking doesn’t, because that’s what it is right fucking now. You can’t be a “separatist” if you already have that. You’re just a status quo-ist.

                  Fuck me talking to nazis hurts, you’re all unbelievably uneducated.

      • CatholicSocialist@lemmy.ml
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        1 year ago

        I think all regions deserve self-autonomy determined by democratic referendums, unlike the tankies that think the Republic of China should be re-annexed…

            • TheLepidopterists [he/him]@hexbear.net
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              1 year ago

              It doesn’t seem like you do given you referred to the current war as an invasion by Russia and Ukraine has been shelling it’s neighbors the LPR and DPR for nearly a decade.

              Can you clarify why Russia shouldn’t be involved in the war between Ukraine and its smaller neighbors?

                • ShimmeringKoi [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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                  1 year ago

                  That’s good, so do I. But there are other people, people wearing totenkopfs and firing mortars into town squares full of people they call cockroaches for the language they speak, who feel quite differently than us. What is your solution to this, so that peace and democracy can prevail?

                  • CatholicSocialist@lemmy.ml
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                    1 year ago

                    Idk, not my place to say. Your solution to oppression of a minority group in one province is full scale war and mass murders of tens of thousands of civilians? Holy shit you guys are warmongerers, America should be paying you! Guarantee you wouldn’t feel the same if America was Russia and Ukraine/Donbas were countries in the Global South in this case tho.

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      1 year ago

      Almost like the reason some of the population is because they stole from the Chinese people and fled to the island when the people fought back. The oppressor doesn’t deserve to get to pick to be independent