- cross-posted to:
- worldnews@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- worldnews@lemmy.ml
President Vladimir Putin said Russia had a “sufficient stockpile” of cluster bombs and reserved the right to use them if such munitions, the use of which he said he regarded as a crime, were deployed against Russian forces in Ukraine.
Ukraine said on Thursday it had received cluster bombs from the United States
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Both sides have been using them from the beginning. This is just a combination of Russian amplification and the actual news cycle.
incorrect, the Ukrainians have not been using them but they will be using them pretty soon.
they already do https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/151ae0i/ukrainian_unit_immaterium_showing_the_employment/ https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/1504ulh/cluster_munitions_used_against_russian_trench_line/
and also i remember an isolated incident of using cluster shells hitting russian trenches, because it was only few this could have been captured ammunition. there was only 20 submunitions each or so, so this had to be something smaller (like 122mm howitzer or maybe 120mm mortar). this one is 7 months old already https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/znp5hy/condensed_video_of_airburst_artillery_attacks_on/ (longer version https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/zn7io8/russian_troops_absorbing_artillery_fire_ukraine/) however, this doesn’t have to be so, as Ukrainians manufacture their own cluster shells and some could be sourced from euro countries, like Poland or Bulgaria, but more importantly Turkey
i found another example https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/13uw2kp/russian_position_targeted_with_cluster_munitions/ this had to happen in spring judging by lack of leaves on trees
Yes, that too on civilians. Now Putin is pretending none of that happened.
Putin: “Russia will use cluster bombs if we have to, we already have, since the beginning, but we will still use them if we have to.”
Has Putin watched too much Mitch Hedberg?
They already used them.
I was gonna say. I distinctly remember that the only reason cluster munitions were sent was in response to Russian ones targeting civilians.
They were using cluster munition from very beginning. There were videos of cluster munition being used in cities with civilians. In the infamous Kramatorsk railway station attack russia used cluster munition for example. Which is what makes putin’s statement quite misleading. It’s effectively lying by omission.
That’s incorrect. It’s because conventional ammunition is running low AND they hope the cluster bombs will help to break the Russian lines/trenches.
@little_cow He already has???
Yep- not sure how putin making this statement is any kind of news.
this is like an announcement to the russian people who don’t really know what is going on in Ukraine. That’s why he still has 80% support, most russians are fooled by state tv and think all the info on the internet is western propaganda when actually only 23% of it is.
From what I understand Putin is using a stricter definition of “cluster bombs” as a muntition containing a bomblets submunition.
I have seen of Russian videos munitions are hypersonic missiles, thermobaric bombs (incendiary submunition), and timed remote mine submunitions (a timed self-destruct feature or one that turns it inert after a while) but none utilizing a pressure fuse like the butterfly mines that were used by Ukraine.
They are terrible weapons regardless of definition
Even if it was just pure anti-personnel clusters, we have evidence of that far back in 2022. So even then he would be lying. For example there is photo graphic evidence from the bomb disposal teams in Ukraine of 9N24 submunition. Which is soviet pure anti-personnel submunition for their cluster dispensers. It has no other purpose. It isn’t even dual use dumb HEAT/FRAG submunition. 9N24 is pure fragmentations anti-personnel round with simple contact fuse. Hit’s ground, the explosive core along the main cylinder shaped munition explodes and well the whole outside wall is lined with steel balls to be thrown in 360 all around.
Similarly 9N210 HE/FRAG munitions have been documented. Again useless against armored targets, only use case is against soft targets like humans. As have 9N235 again HE/FRAG sub munitions been documented.
All same purpose, just little different sized and exact design for different dispensers. Some those might theoretically have fuses with self destruct. However the whole point about cluster munitions being bad is fuses fail, including supposed self-destruct fuses. There is no such thing as 100% reliable fuse, even self destruct one.
My source: Armaments Research Services articles on the subject. I’m sure there is bunch of other more official sources also, including listing more individual incidents and attacks. ARES are just convenient source here, since they are interested the weapons technologies and types used in conflicts, so they have bunch of articles of “This specific type of submunitions has now been seen in Ukraine”.
none utilizing a pressure fuse like the butterfly mines that were used by Ukraine.
Both sides claim the other is using these, and both sides likely are.
Yes, and called them “precision strikes against military targets”.
They’re already using them.
Ukraine is using them to clear minefields planted by Russians who illegally entered the country for the purpose of mass murder. I think we can give Ukraine a pass on what type of munitions they think will be useful for saving lives.
you’d need submunition to hit mine directly, if you want to use boom for demining, you’re looking for something like MCLIC or UR-77 (this might be a little bit counterproductive in build up areas). unless you mean EOD techs using submunitions as a donor charge, but this makes little sense, as you can use about anything to do this, including random recast AT mines and pieces of busted ERA bricks. repurposing DPICM elements this way would be unnecessarily dangerous operation
conversely, if you use DPICM in combat, you might need to clear that area before your own troops even move in, in some cases. because of large number of these elements some will fail and it might pose risk to advancing force
Ukrainians using DPICM is good, because it shortens time russians will be able to shell civilians, plant minefields and spread UXO
and also to clear the russian trenches of russian soldiers
Definitely agree
Whoa settle down Russia next they will be saying they are going to try and take kyiv in 3 days.
He followed it up by saying that if Ukraine doesn’t watch their step, Russia may need to send troops into Ukraine too.
They already used them and already committed countless war crimes.
The people claiming Ukraine is committing crime were just distracted when Russia used them on civilians? Anyways the Ukrainian Government already stated that they will not be used in towns and cities but only to clear minefields
Distracted? I dunno. Russian propagandists/bots seems more likely.
Even at the bar I tend, filled with “conservatives” that think Donald was cheated out of the election, there isn’t anyone who believes Russia is in the right.
From what I read the main purpose of cluster munitions is for offensive maneuvers, so my hope is Russia will be too busy (and unsuccessful) holding their frontlines to make effective use of them.
Can we just draw and quarter Putin already?
We really need to lift all restrictions for Ukraine on the use of weapons they’re being given. Let them rain horror on the Russian people, and see how fast the country turns against putin and his regime. Otherwise this war will drag on forever.
Bombing Russian civilians will not hasten the end of the war and could very possibly strengthen public support putin. Also let’s encourage even more war crimes than are already happening.
^ This
No, let them rain horror down on Russian invaders inside their country. Using these in Russia will mean the west won’t send them anymore and will cut off aid, and Biden and NATO have said as much.
We really need to lift all restrictions for Ukraine on the use of weapons they’re being given
yes, attacking valid military targets within internationally recognized russian borders like weapon depots, troop staging grounds and so on would be useful operationally (if perhaps not strategically, because it gives russians push to adapt at least). however
Let them rain horror on the Russian people, and see how fast the country turns against putin and his regime. Otherwise this war will drag on forever.
attacking civilians is counterproductive if you want to turn them against current govt
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