I wish wagons were more popular. They’re great for fitting all the stuff in for the family, but lighter and much better handling. I don’t know why SUVs became the thing, but I wish wagons would be a come-back. A Tesla wagon would be awesome.
Took me years to realize but “Crossover SUVs” are basically just Hatchbacks with slightly higher suspensions. Hell, manufacturers like Subaru literally use the same chassis as their sedans.
Which is slightly different than a station wagon but is close enough for the vast majority of people since the main distinction is more vertical storage capacity because of rounded edges (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Station_wagon#Comparison_with_hatchbacks). Which… definitely was an issue when I had to make multiple dump runs but never comes up in “real life” as it were.
Like, I hate that I drive a “SUV”. But when I was doing more or less everything I could to NOT buy one I eventually realized “A hatchback Impreza with a lift kit sounds perfect” was literally at the same dealership.
As for SUVs in general: a lot of it is people thinking they need a giant vehicle to carry their one child around town.
But the other aspect is… driving in a sedan sucks these days. You are surrounded by pickup trucks where the wheel axis is already at eye level. You have no visibility in traffic and are pretty regularly afraid of what happens if someone doesn’t stop.
Like I said, I drive a hatchback/crossover now. And that generally puts me at bumper height on a lot of trucks which… still means my visibility is shit but means I am less likely to get monster trucks driving on top of me.
The worst crossover I saw is the Ford Ecosport. It is basically a Ford Fiesta with higher suspension. It has nothing to do with a SUV, it is small, has 0 towing capacity, is 3000lbs, has a 3 cylinders engine, cost 30’000$ (in canada). The most useless and expensive thing. A Fiesta was half the price for essentially the same frame/car.
Honestly? I kind of liked the concept of it. I always thought it looked hideous (I mean, it IS a Ford…) but the size and height seemed good.
Also, I think that was mostly geared toward non-US markets where having the extra seats and the like are good but people don’t want to drive a hotel room on wheels.
That actually sounds pretty good to me. If the rear seats go down so I can put bigger stuff in the back, that’s a huge advantage over the weird trunk angles you have to work with in a sedan. I don’t need to tow anything, but a slightly higher ride is useful when I’m going out in the woods and need to clear rocks in the middle of the unmaintained road.
The ecosport has neither trunk room nor rear leg room. The only way to get any amount of space is to put the rear seats down then you can fit some things.
Height is an advantage, but length is still surprisingly short. Plus ya know, no rear passenger room.
If you drive a Subaru Crosstrek you are not part of the problem imo. That’s a reasonably priced, highly functional compact crossover. The real problems are trucks, full-sized SUVs, and other “mall terrain vehicles.”
The Crosstrek has an incredibly short body. I wanted to get one but my head touched the ceiling with the seat fully adjusted. I’m tall, but not that tall.
I used to complain about the promotion of hatchback for cargo space because they were really a regular trunk turned vertically. Your Wikipedia link shows that well with the ~2008 Focus examples. If you compare the 2012+ focus, it’s a bit clearer because that generation offered a 5 door hatch alongside the 4 door sedan. I disliked the tradeoff of the large rear opening (with folding seats) because it came with a shortened trunk length and the sloped rear glass reduced total volume (compared to a wagon typically having more vertical glass and being longer overall than the sedan). However, the shorter version do have a purpose if you frequently park in the street or any other urban/dense lots. They’re easier to parallel park and less likely to get swiped in garages and such as people swing wide. They offer 4-5 seats, they offer a large cargo area, just not at the same time. That makes enough sense to me for vehicles living their daily duty as single-person vehicles.
That’s basically how my daily driving duty is now split between a small motorcycle and, for bad weather, a 4x4 (hi/lo) body-on-frame convertible 2-door suv smaller than a miata Geo Tracker.
In the other branch we already pointed out that the Fiesta/Ecosport were very much “european” SUVs as it were.
And yeah, I think it was the Yaris that didn’t have foldable seats and was just REAL shitty? But basically every modern hatchback/“crossover suv” has foldable seats.
I am no expert. But of the cars I have seriously researched in the past decade or so (Subaru Crosstrek, one of the Hyundai ICEs, Subaru Solterra, Hyundai ioniq5): they all have folding seats and all have comparable storage.
And from personal experience? When I have a LOT of cardboard to take to recycling or a lot of yard waste to take to the dump, the curvature and vertical issues are a bit annoying. Mostly in a “I guess I need to break this down more or pack this tighter” kind of way but it is still annoying.
But for doing ikea runs 8 hours away or picking up lumber or piping or whatever from the hardware store? Zero issues. Because I DON"T want heavy stuff stacked up to head level behind me when I might need to stop suddenly.
And for just heading into towns for groceries, clothes, random ass boxes, etc? I rarely ever even have to fold the seat down.
Which was mostly my point. There are definitely cases where the curvature and loss of vertical storage space are an issue. But, by and large, those are either incredibly niche or you actually have a good reason to own a pickup truck.
It doesn’t really matter if you get a larger SUV, you’re still shorter than the jacked up F150+’s and such. We have a car and a 17yo 4Runner (and I try to use it for hauling more than kids and going on more terrain than asphalt), but even the 4Runner is dwarfed by most things. Almost every thing I park it near is larger at this point. Heck a 4th gen 4Runner is within inches of the dimensions of a current Ford Escape, it’s crazy.
Agree. As for the history, wagons were popular in the 70s, but the minivan really took off in the 80s. This led to a perception that Minivans weren’t masculine, so there was a big boom in SUVs which had the volume and utility of a Minivan, but were more manly.
If you’re curious, it is because wagons are classified as passenger vehicles and SUVs are classified as light trucks. Wagons are held to higher emissions/safety standards than SUVs, making them less profitable to produce in the US. So most automakers steer clear. They don’t want to accidentally compete with their own most profitable products by selling a less profitable one that better-matches what consumers need.
Wagons and minivans - which are great substitutes for SUVs - have a negative stigma because everybody’s parents had one and people don’t want to feel old.
Still more efficient than the same thing in boxy SUV form.
I was talking to someone last year and doing 100mph in a 5.0 V8 Mustang he was getting better mpg than 70mph in a Kia Soul (about 25). Make an aerodynamic wagon and you’re golden.
The Mercedes looks tolerable, although it wouldn’t be the car I would choose for that price. The Audi is downright hideous. I would rather pay half as much to get both a Miata for when I want to have fun and a truck for when I need the cargo space.
Not quite a wagon but I love my Honda Fit, it sips gas, handles surprisingly well for a car in its price range and it’s amazing how much stuff you can Fit into the little guy
Aw man I miss my Volvo wagon. I should have never sold it. I would love to get another used one but I would have to pay triple what I sold it for to get it back these days, prices are just insane since they stopped making anything decent years ago.
I wish wagons were more popular. They’re great for fitting all the stuff in for the family, but lighter and much better handling. I don’t know why SUVs became the thing, but I wish wagons would be a come-back. A Tesla wagon would be awesome.
Took me years to realize but “Crossover SUVs” are basically just Hatchbacks with slightly higher suspensions. Hell, manufacturers like Subaru literally use the same chassis as their sedans.
Which is slightly different than a station wagon but is close enough for the vast majority of people since the main distinction is more vertical storage capacity because of rounded edges (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Station_wagon#Comparison_with_hatchbacks). Which… definitely was an issue when I had to make multiple dump runs but never comes up in “real life” as it were.
Like, I hate that I drive a “SUV”. But when I was doing more or less everything I could to NOT buy one I eventually realized “A hatchback Impreza with a lift kit sounds perfect” was literally at the same dealership.
As for SUVs in general: a lot of it is people thinking they need a giant vehicle to carry their one child around town.
But the other aspect is… driving in a sedan sucks these days. You are surrounded by pickup trucks where the wheel axis is already at eye level. You have no visibility in traffic and are pretty regularly afraid of what happens if someone doesn’t stop.
Like I said, I drive a hatchback/crossover now. And that generally puts me at bumper height on a lot of trucks which… still means my visibility is shit but means I am less likely to get monster trucks driving on top of me.
The worst crossover I saw is the Ford Ecosport. It is basically a Ford Fiesta with higher suspension. It has nothing to do with a SUV, it is small, has 0 towing capacity, is 3000lbs, has a 3 cylinders engine, cost 30’000$ (in canada). The most useless and expensive thing. A Fiesta was half the price for essentially the same frame/car.
They took a Fiesta and made it heavier with worse handling. And they do it with every car now. It’s infuriating.
Honestly? I kind of liked the concept of it. I always thought it looked hideous (I mean, it IS a Ford…) but the size and height seemed good.
Also, I think that was mostly geared toward non-US markets where having the extra seats and the like are good but people don’t want to drive a hotel room on wheels.
That actually sounds pretty good to me. If the rear seats go down so I can put bigger stuff in the back, that’s a huge advantage over the weird trunk angles you have to work with in a sedan. I don’t need to tow anything, but a slightly higher ride is useful when I’m going out in the woods and need to clear rocks in the middle of the unmaintained road.
Except the price. That’s unnecessary.
The ecosport has neither trunk room nor rear leg room. The only way to get any amount of space is to put the rear seats down then you can fit some things.
Height is an advantage, but length is still surprisingly short. Plus ya know, no rear passenger room.
Hmm, you’re right. Needs a bit more length.
If you drive a Subaru Crosstrek you are not part of the problem imo. That’s a reasonably priced, highly functional compact crossover. The real problems are trucks, full-sized SUVs, and other “mall terrain vehicles.”
The Crosstrek has an incredibly short body. I wanted to get one but my head touched the ceiling with the seat fully adjusted. I’m tall, but not that tall.
I used to complain about the promotion of hatchback for cargo space because they were really a regular trunk turned vertically. Your Wikipedia link shows that well with the ~2008 Focus examples. If you compare the 2012+ focus, it’s a bit clearer because that generation offered a 5 door hatch alongside the 4 door sedan. I disliked the tradeoff of the large rear opening (with folding seats) because it came with a shortened trunk length and the sloped rear glass reduced total volume (compared to a wagon typically having more vertical glass and being longer overall than the sedan). However, the shorter version do have a purpose if you frequently park in the street or any other urban/dense lots. They’re easier to parallel park and less likely to get swiped in garages and such as people swing wide. They offer 4-5 seats, they offer a large cargo area, just not at the same time. That makes enough sense to me for vehicles living their daily duty as single-person vehicles.
That’s basically how my daily driving duty is now split between a small motorcycle and, for bad weather, a 4x4 (hi/lo) body-on-frame convertible 2-door suv smaller than a miata Geo Tracker.
In the other branch we already pointed out that the Fiesta/Ecosport were very much “european” SUVs as it were.
And yeah, I think it was the Yaris that didn’t have foldable seats and was just REAL shitty? But basically every modern hatchback/“crossover suv” has foldable seats.
I am no expert. But of the cars I have seriously researched in the past decade or so (Subaru Crosstrek, one of the Hyundai ICEs, Subaru Solterra, Hyundai ioniq5): they all have folding seats and all have comparable storage.
And from personal experience? When I have a LOT of cardboard to take to recycling or a lot of yard waste to take to the dump, the curvature and vertical issues are a bit annoying. Mostly in a “I guess I need to break this down more or pack this tighter” kind of way but it is still annoying.
But for doing ikea runs 8 hours away or picking up lumber or piping or whatever from the hardware store? Zero issues. Because I DON"T want heavy stuff stacked up to head level behind me when I might need to stop suddenly.
And for just heading into towns for groceries, clothes, random ass boxes, etc? I rarely ever even have to fold the seat down.
Which was mostly my point. There are definitely cases where the curvature and loss of vertical storage space are an issue. But, by and large, those are either incredibly niche or you actually have a good reason to own a pickup truck.
It doesn’t really matter if you get a larger SUV, you’re still shorter than the jacked up F150+’s and such. We have a car and a 17yo 4Runner (and I try to use it for hauling more than kids and going on more terrain than asphalt), but even the 4Runner is dwarfed by most things. Almost every thing I park it near is larger at this point. Heck a 4th gen 4Runner is within inches of the dimensions of a current Ford Escape, it’s crazy.
Agree. As for the history, wagons were popular in the 70s, but the minivan really took off in the 80s. This led to a perception that Minivans weren’t masculine, so there was a big boom in SUVs which had the volume and utility of a Minivan, but were more manly.
If you’re curious, it is because wagons are classified as passenger vehicles and SUVs are classified as light trucks. Wagons are held to higher emissions/safety standards than SUVs, making them less profitable to produce in the US. So most automakers steer clear. They don’t want to accidentally compete with their own most profitable products by selling a less profitable one that better-matches what consumers need.
Also fuck Tesla.
Chuck Testa? Nope, fuck Tesla.
Wagons and minivans - which are great substitutes for SUVs - have a negative stigma because everybody’s parents had one and people don’t want to feel old.
Hopefully the same thing will happen to SUVs.
You’re probably right but wagons can be cool now.
No need to convince me, I love my v60
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
wagons can be cool now.
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Can’t really claim better efficiency at that point
Still more efficient than the same thing in boxy SUV form.
I was talking to someone last year and doing 100mph in a 5.0 V8 Mustang he was getting better mpg than 70mph in a Kia Soul (about 25). Make an aerodynamic wagon and you’re golden.
Anything’s cool I’m the 100k plus grouping…
The Mercedes looks tolerable, although it wouldn’t be the car I would choose for that price. The Audi is downright hideous. I would rather pay half as much to get both a Miata for when I want to have fun and a truck for when I need the cargo space.
Huh my parents had a Bronco, don’t like that style. Also had a minivan, very good vehicle that I would get for family life.
Not quite a wagon but I love my Honda Fit, it sips gas, handles surprisingly well for a car in its price range and it’s amazing how much stuff you can Fit into the little guy
My old Mazda protege was basically that with a foot longer trunk. It was perfect size.
I’m just glad they’re bringing back small trucks. I don’t want a small-penismobile, I want a vehicle I can throw some lumber and such in on occasion.
Which is why I love my Hyundai Santa Cruz. Sucker can tow 3500lb but can get 35mpg highway
Aw man I miss my Volvo wagon. I should have never sold it. I would love to get another used one but I would have to pay triple what I sold it for to get it back these days, prices are just insane since they stopped making anything decent years ago.
Buying a car nowadays is a freaking nightmare, I hope mine lasts many more years
There isn’t a single new car out that I want to own more than the equivalent discontinued model.
I was with you on everything until that last sentence.
deleted by creator